I don’t wear make-up very often. I tend to reserve it for three general situations: (1) where formal wear is required; (2) slightly more formal than usual work situations (eg job interviews); and (3) when I’m in the mood, because playing dress-up can be fun sometimes.
I’m wearing my red lipstick today in honour of International Whore’s Day, so I’ve got a bit of eye make-up on as well to balance out the red lips.
A colleague – who I’ve known for a while, but with whom I’ve only recently started working, so she hasn’t seen me in make-up very often – just came in and said: “you look nice!”
I bit back the comments about perpetuation of the patriarchal feminine beauty standard and just told her about International Whore’s Day.
However, I feel the need to rant a bit.
When you tell someone “you look nice!” because she is doing something that fits within the patriarchal feminine beauty standard, something which she doesn’t usually do, you are reinforcing the idea that she should normally do that thing.
Examples include: (1) wearing make-up; (2) wearing certain clothes (eg skirts or high heels); (3) losing weight (commenting on weight loss has other problems too, of course); (4) changes of hairstyle (eg having “neater” or “more styled” or longer hair); (5) wearing jewellery; (6) depilating legs/underarms/etc. (Those are just off the top of my head – what am I missing?)
When you make a point of remarking on someone looking nice when they do any of these things, you are participating in the policing of women.
JUST STOP!
Devil’s advocate…
But what if you actually think the woman looks nice in the dress she has on, or that the way she has her eye makeup done flatters her eyes? Should we just not say anything at all? Is it wrong to compliment someone?
I am not being snarky, I am genuinely wondering because this is something I struggle with.
I did actually think about that as I posted – and yeah, I tell people they look nice at times, too. Actually, I usually try to pinpoint something specific, and I think the reasons below explain why. (And also, it depends on how well I know someone. If I know someone has made a real effort to do something special and I know THEY really care about it, I am more likely to comment on it. If I don’t know the person, then I am less likely to do so.)
So, two responses:
(1) (the less rampaging feminist response)
Context matters. Think about what it means (and whether it matters!) if you think something looks nice. My colleague said to me: “You look nice – oh, you’re wearing make-up!” The generality of the comment got to me; it implied “you look nice BECAUSE you’re wearing make-up, therefore you SHOULD wear make-up more often”. (That probably wasn’t what she meant, and I’m sure if I’d pulled her up on it she would have understood what I was getting at (but I decided it was more interesting to talk about International Whore’s Day anyway).)
“You look nice” is so … blah. It’s a note of approval rather than a compliment directed to the person.
If she’d said something more specific, like “I like that lipstick” (it’s an awesome lipstick :) very RED. I like red.) then I wouldn’t have been so bothered by it.
Similarly, “I like those shoes” is different from “you look good in high heels”.
In other words, I guess what I’m saying is if someone makes a comment about my *taste*, then I’m more likely to accept it as a compliment.
Having said that: “taste” encompasses “knowing what suits me”, so it’s still a comment – to some extent – on how well I’m fitting the beauty standard. I mean, when you say “your eye make-up flatters your eyes”, what you MIGHT really be saying is “your eye make-up helps your eyes fit the patriarchal beauty standard better”!
It IS fun to play dress-up, and it CAN be nice for someone to notice you’ve done that. But in my own personal little utopia, our compliments would be less “approving” (and I’d put the “flatters your eyes” on the approving side of the line) and more a comment on attributes or taste (eg “that eye make-up really brings out the colour of your eyes – I’d never noticed how blue they were before” – heh, and then the person tells you they’re wearing coloured contacts today ;) or “the way you’ve put that eyeliner on is really funky – how did you do that?”).
So yes, context matters, and mostly the point is: if you think about what you’re saying and how the person you’re trying to compliment might take it, then you are more likely to make everyone happy.
[On that note, your gravatar is really cute, by the way :) ]
(2) (the rampaging non-fun-feminist ;) response) (actually, it’s very similar to the first response, but with a different emphasis)
How I choose to present myself (whether I’m playing dress-up or not) is a matter for me. If you don’t know me well, you shouldn’t comment. If you know me well, you are more likely to be able to make an appropriate comment, so please try (if you must make a comment at all, and you will probably know that I don’t mind if you don’t).
—-
And then there are some things that I think should almost never be commented on (in terms of how someone LOOKS), no matter how well you know the person. I’d put weight in this category. And natural attributes generally.
[...] “You look nice!” [...]
I think if you can’t think of anything to say beyond ‘you look nice’ then just smile. It will probably have pretty much the same effect. I think commenting on something individually is usually ok – eg: I like what you’ve done with your hair – because it means that I’m admiring you, even if your hair is purple (this actually happened and I really did like it mainly because I’d never be game enough to do it for myself). Re weight, if it’s someone that I know has been worrying about their weight, has discussed it with me and is actively trying to get fitter then if I notice that they have lost weight I will say something like ‘wow, you look slimmer/fitter everytime I see you’ because it reinforces their self confidence in what they are doing for themselves to make themselves happy. Sometimes it’s nice when someone notices.
This: “if it’s someone that I know has been worrying about their weight, has discussed it with me and is actively trying to get fitter then if I notice that they have lost weight I will say something like ‘wow, you look slimmer/fitter everytime I see you’ because it reinforces their self confidence in what they are doing for themselves to make themselves happy.”
Here’s how I would act in that situation (YMMV – in fact, they clearly do ;) ).
If it’s someone that I know has been worrying about their weight, has discussed it with me and is actively trying to get fitter then I will probably point them to resources such as this one and blogs such as this one to try to convince them that weight alone says nothing about health and that BMI is a pile of BS. But I would try not to pester or harass them about it, because after all, it’s their body and their choice.
However, I would be vocal in my support of their decision to get fitter (although still not overly much, as again, it’s their body and their choice).
Then, if I notice they have lost weight, I will keep my mouth firmly fastened, since you can’t tell if someone is actually fitter based on their weight (you never know – they may have dropped the exercise regimen and simply be starving themselves slowly to death – or maybe caught some sort of bug that knocked them out for a couple of weeks). I also don’t want to contribute to the erroneous ideas that weight is an indicator of good health.
However, whether I notice they have lost weight or not, I would ask them from time to time how they’re going with their attempts to get fitter and I would reinforce whatever they saw as an achievement in that (whether that’s some objective thing – say, being able to run further or lift more weights or kick higher or bend more – or simply how they felt, or even just the efforts they’re making, because there are so many reasons why doing something like going for a 15 minute walk is an achievement in itself). Because what I think reinforces someone’s self-confidence in what they are doing for themselves to make themselves happy are the skills and achievements involved.
As a general rule, I do not see losing weight, in and of itself, as an achievement (I admit there may be situations where it is necessary and it is an achievement, but it is my opinion that those are the exception and not the rule).
And look, I know full well that if someone really cares about their weight, my opinion on whether or not they need to is unlikely to change their minds. I still refuse to participate in the social messages that they should care.
What about when I tell a bloke he looks nice?
You’re (probably) not enforcing the patriarchal feminine beauty standard, then, are you?
Like I said: context matters.
The answer’s so obvious from my post and later comment that I guess I’d better let you know that I consider your comment to be trolling. I don’t like trolls. :)
And I should add: part of the reason I consider your comment trollish is because your question is so simple and generic (and that’s important here, because again, context matters).
I agree with you that questions like yours could raise interesting issues. But because it involves a complete derailment of the thread, I’m not interested in discussing it with you unless I think you are doing something other than trolling. Which you could do (ie something other than trolling) by making it clear that you’d actually engaged with my post.
Thanks Jo, I can see your point and will stop immediately! Seriously though I will think these things through more carefully. I was thinking about the “starving thing” when I wrote the comment but wasn’t sure how to put it all together. You have crystalised the issue for me.
Uh, sorry if I come across a bit too dogmatic at times!
As I said: YMMV. I was basically trying to emphasise why I think, as a general rule, there’s always an option other than commenting on someone’s weight. You are welcome to keep doing so, of course – I claim no monopoly on “rightness”, even if my post did end with an imperative ;) I simply reserve the right to get shirty (and write a post!) if you were to ever do make such a comment to me ;)
Hmmm. Context may be important, but for me it’s got nothing to do with any patriarchal standard or weight gain or loss. I’m interested in clothes, I notice what people are wearing and how they present themselves, but I loathe overly ‘feminine’ looks. I’m more likely to comment when the person is wearing something original and interesting, or a colour that flatters their skin, or has a hair cut or colour that is a bit daring. And I probably wouldn’t say ‘nice’, I’d say ’sharp’ or ‘interesting’ or ’stylish’.
I get really irritated when people say ‘Haven’t you lost weight?” I haven’t, I don’t want to, and that’s not a compliment, thanks for nothing.
M-H, just to make it clear, the “context matters” repetition relates to my post generally. I think there’s pretty much no reason to ever comment on weight, and therefore context becomes almost irrelevant.
And this:
“I’m interested in clothes, I notice what people are wearing and how they present themselves, but I loathe overly ‘feminine’ looks. I’m more likely to comment when the person is wearing something original and interesting, or a colour that flatters their skin, or has a hair cut or colour that is a bit daring. And I probably wouldn’t say ‘nice’, I’d say ’sharp’ or ‘interesting’ or ’stylish’.”
is all part of context!
Compliments in that context are far less likely to be enforcements of the patriarchal feminine beauty standard.
(Although I will note: your intentions may be irrelevant, except insofar as they inform what you do – that is, if you actively intend to do something that is not “enforcement of the patriarchal feminine beauty standard” (getting sick of typing that phrase! ;) ), then you may be more likely to do something which does not constitute such enforcement. Not saying you have to be thinking “how can I avoid enforcing the standard”, but if you are actively intending to, say, compliment someone on the originality of their outfit, then you are less likely to actually enforce the standard. I’m going to stop writing myself in circles now…)
@Mindy: fair enough. Glad to be of assistance ;)
Not at all Jo. It felt kind of wrong (to me) when I wrote it, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on why. So I thought, if I get it out there, then someone will come back with a different opinion which I can then think about and get a better handle on this issue. Which you have helped me to do, so thank you. (just looked up YMMV which I should have done before posting that second comment, now I’ve learned two things today, yay for me ;)
Maybe I should have been clearer. I’m a dyke. I aspire to a style all my own and I appreciate other people who do the same. I make a lot of my own clothes and I appreciate people who do that too. Patriarchal standards don’t apply, unless you think those who make and enforce them would approve of my ‘mannish’ appearance, which somehow makes it clear that I am a woman but also that I don’t give a flying fuck what men think about how I look.
M-H, it sounds like you think either that I specifically said you, personally, make comments that enforce the patriarchal feminine beauty standard (in fact, I said pretty much the opposite!) OR that you think my post is somehow directed to compliments generally (it’s not, which I actually thought was pretty clear).
Dyke or not, you’re living in a patriarchy. I’m living in a patriarchy. Patriarchy (or kyriarchy, if you prefer) is not about individuals but about the system.
As Helen at the Cast Iron Balcony might say, you’re soaking in it. I’m soaking in it. We’re all soaking in it. Like it or not.
I also don’t give a flying fuck what men (or anyone else, for that matter, including my mother ;) ) think about how I look – doesn’t mean I’m not living in a patriarchy. Doesn’t mean others don’t attempt to enforce the patriarchal feminine beauty standard on me. Doesn’t mean I can’t be guilty myself of enforcing the patriarchal feminine beauty standard on others.
In any case, my reply to your first comment was an attempt to point out that my original post was not directed at you or anyone else like you – that is, it sounds like in your context, you do not make the kinds of comments I’m whingeing about!
(See these parts of my original reply:
“Compliments in that context are far less likely to be enforcements of the patriarchal feminine beauty standard.”
“if you are actively intending to, say, compliment someone on the originality of their outfit, then you are less likely to actually enforce the standard.”
emphasis added; both of those sentences basically say “I don’t think you, yourself, personally are enforcing the patriarchal feminine beauty standard, based on what you say about yourself.”)
I’m not – and I didn’t say this in my earlier reply because I thought it was pretty clear – I’m NOT saying that we should never ever compliment anyone on how they look.
I’m not saying that every compliment is an enforcement of the patriarchal feminine beauty standard.
I’m saying we shouldn’t make compliments that enforce the patriarchal feminine beauty standard (and, in particular, that generic comments such as “you look nice!” have a tendency to do this, no matter what the intentions of the compliment-maker).
Whether or not the comments we make fall into that category depends on context.
From what you’ve said about your context (in BOTH of your comments), it seems that you do not enforce the patriarchal feminine beauty standard.
Therefore my post is not directed at any comments you make.
——
@hmphh: all part of the reason I now cut my hair myself :)
@kandela: What LadyGrey said. This is really why: “I think people look better…”, which implies you have some sort of standard you’re holding people to.
Sure, a compliment isn’t really sincere unless it reflects your personal taste. But it’s not going to be accepted or appreciated unless it reflects what the person you’re complimenting thinks about themselves or what they’re doing, to some extent.
So you’ve either got to accept that you’re making a political statement and that people will react to that (but from a paternalistic point of view, maybe they won’t appreciate it at the time but maybe it will stick in their mind) OR say nothing.
Plus again: specificity is the key, IMHO :)
YES! I’ve quite short hair for a long time and have recently decided to start growing it long (that way I can tie it back). Three comments of interest. The defacto Mother-in-law with “I like it, it’s much less….severe than it used to be.” 2nd from my hairdresser “May be once you’ve got longer, more romantic hair he will propose to you.” (yes, 11 years we’ve been together and the reason we are not married is because I don’t have ‘romantic’ hair!) and thirdly from a work collegue when I was off to get a haircut. “oh, but it really suits you long, you’re not getting it cut too short are you?” my reply “yep, I am, it’s driving me crazy at the moment.” “But it suits you longer, it looks pretty”
“Yeah, but it’s annoying me” then seriously her reply, “Does my opinion really mean that little to you?” That extra comment resulted in an extra two inches off!
I have occasionally told someone they look nice (or something similar) specifically because they weren’t wearing make-up. I think people look better when they are presenting as being happy with themselves without alteration. Most often the result is they (a) think I’m making fun of them (b) don’t believe me (c) think I’m just being polite. Suggestions?
Kandela: that can be just as bad, though context matters. I’ve seen people be as dogmatic about enforcing alternative standards as society is at enforcing patriarchal norms. E.g., a guy I dated who was very into everything being natural whose disapproval kept me from shaving my legs or from cutting my hair short.
No jo I wasn’t trolling. Fair enough you think I could be. You don’t know me. I’m a long time reader, first time poster. I just think you’re arguing shit that is about 5 billion down on the importance stakes and I did not agree with your post.
Compliments are not purely the domain of men directed to women or women directed to women. I will compliment both my female and male child. I’ll have the bloody nerve to say “You look nice, son”.
I don’t mind being told I look nice considering most of the time I’m dressed in old tracky daks, a black shirt and my hair akimbo. Also, when you tell somebody, male or female, adult or child, bus driver or octogenarian that they look nice it’s a confidence booster. What’s wrong with that?
I think that the anti compliments ie., “you look better when you wear eye liner”, or “do you want to know how I lost weight?” or “do you want the name of my hairdresser?”, well they’re more your classic instances of the patriarchal feminine standard.
If I ever see you I’ll be sure to tell you how ugly you look.
Thanks Sandy for coming back – and in that case, my apologies for thinking you were a troll. I hope that you continue to read, whether or not you agree with me.
Funnily enough, I agree with this:
“I just think you’re arguing shit that is about 5 billion down on the importance stakes”
The post was a 5 minute rant. I said, in the post, that it was a rant. It was about something that happened briefly – which I didn’t feel was important enough to call my colleague out about, in fact, I thought it was more important to talk about why I was wearing the make-up – and about which I wanted to express a couple of minutes of anger. Quite frankly, I’m amazed (and, I admit, a little disappointed) that this post has got as much attention as it has – way more than my series for Reconciliation Week, for example, which I think are about far more important issues. This post – within 24 hours – has become one of the most-read posts I’ve ever written. Whuh??? Further: I never, ever, EVER imagined that this post would result in my most active comment thread yet. I thought: hey, I’m feeling a bit narky, I’ll write the post, I’ll stop feeling narky, and then I’ll never have to think about it again.
Uh, yeah. That went well!
So ok, it may not be enormously important – but I never made the claim that it was. I think it has some importance, though, and even if it doesn’t: I don’t have to justify writing about unimportant shit. I don’t have to justify getting angry about unimportant shit. I don’t have to justify other people coming along and reading the unimportant shit I write about.
Had I thought it was more important, I would have put more thought and effort into the post – and ironically enough, had I done that, had I expressed the philosophy behind what I was saying more clearly, maybe there would have been less discussion. Who knows?
Anyway, a lot of what I would respond to you in terms of substantive argument is contained in my response(s) to M-H above. But I think it would be dismissive to not treat your comment individually, so apologies for any repetition.
So:
“Compliments are not purely the domain of men directed to women or women directed to women.”
I never said they were! I’m talking about specific compliments in a specific context!
“I will compliment both my female and male child. I’ll have the bloody nerve to say “You look nice, son”.”
Fine. My post doesn’t say you shouldn’t. I’m talking about specific compliments in a specific context!
Anyway, totally up to you how you act. I know my post contains an imperative at the end. Perhaps that was a mistake. Really, my point is not “don’t make compliments! compliments are bad! evil! EEEEEVVVIIIIILLLLL!” but RATHER: “when you want to make a compliment, it will be more effective if you think about the context in which you’re making it.”
But ultimately, you have the right to make whatever comments you choose to make. I reserve the right to get shirty with you if you make comments to me which I think are enforcements of the patriarchal feminine beauty standard.
“I don’t mind being told I look nice considering most of the time I’m dressed in old tracky daks, a black shirt and my hair akimbo.”
So when you’re dressed as you describe, and someone says you look nice, they’re not enforcing the patriarchal feminine beauty standard!
“when you tell somebody, male or female, adult or child, bus driver or octogenarian that they look nice it’s a confidence booster.”
Actually, it MIGHT be a confidence booster. That’s kind of my point. Whether or not it’s a confidence booster depends on the context in which the compliment is made.
You obviously feel differently about this – as I’m sure do many others. To me, the bland, generic “you look nice!” will never be a compliment to me. It might come from someone I don’t know – honestly, I don’t give a shit what they think. It might come from someone I know well – seriously, can’t they think of something specific?
I actually hate the fact that we’re trained to think that if someone compliments us, we must accept it as a compliment and be nice in return. Therein lies the root of much passive-aggressive “joy”.
In the end: if you don’t make the compliments I’m talking about, then this post is not about you. If you don’t care about getting the compliments I’m talking about, then fine, let’s agree to disagree.
And finally:
“If I ever see you I’ll be sure to tell you how ugly you look.”
Uh, wow. I mean, I don’t give a shit, but: wow.
Insults: the way to prove you really think deep thoughts!
————–
Anyway, Sandy’s absolutely right. This post is not all that important. There are far more important issues to think, and write, about. For that reason, I will probably not respond to any further comments (if there *are* any), although you are of course more than welcome to continue commenting.
LadyGrey: good point. I guess it is important to draw the line between complimenting someone when you see something you like and dissaproving of someone when you see something you don’t. Though, I really can’t bring myself to do anything but disapprove of high heels, to do so to me is like approving of cigarettes.
I mean I know that high heels do damage to people’s feet, they increase your risk of injury and reduce your mobility. Why shouldn’t I say the equivalent of, “If you keep smoking those you’ll end up with lung cancer,”?
But I also think it is important to pay compliments that reflect what you like personally. So long as you are being true to yourself in giving it, and not simply acknowledging an adherence to a conventional beauty standard. True, it is up to the recipient to judge the worth of the compliment.
And I get what Jo is saying too. General compliments are useless, specifics have more meaning. Something like, “I like the way the colour of that shirt matches your eyes,” is much better.
Something else I do that might be relevant here, on occasion I make observations about a person’s appearance in a neutral way. Something like, “You’re wearing skirt/shorts today.” It can be instructive to gauge the person’s reaction. Some will automatically assume any observation is a compliment, others react in a different way.
I don’t care if this isn’t an important issue, as a feminist I’m still allowed to discuss it if I want to and attempts to shut it down will be treated as such. It’s an old trick and we’re wise to it. Sure discussing this won’t save women in the third world, but before you start badgering me about that, tell me what you’ve done lately to stop it. Then you can explain to me why it’s the exclusive domain of feminists to do something about all the women suffering in the world.
Then, you can tell me what’s so bloody important about the State of Origin result, or Andrew Symonds being sent home from England and then show me all the letters you’ve written to the media telling them that “I just think you’re arguing shit that is about 5 billion down on the importance stakes”. If you can’t do that then don’t show up on feminist blogs and tell us that what we are talking about is unimportant as if you spend your day dealing with world poverty and never talk about anything else.
Apologies Jo if this is inappropriate for your blog. Please feel free to delete.
I know you’re not directing it at me. I was further explaining how I conduct myself around body ornamentation, to continue to conversation. I completely agree with your analysis, but was reflecting out loud on other ways to think about complimentation (if that’s a word – I like the sound of it anyway!). I like to comment on what people are wearing, and I like it when they do it back at me; I was thinking out loud about why I do it and why I’d like other people to do it. And, yes, I do know I’m living in the patriarchy! I’ve been oppressed by it for 58 years today, and have probably been aware of it for about 45 of those years. I’ve been thinking about it, studying it and writing about it for most of that time.
M-H: fair enough, I think we were maybe cross-communicating then (which is not a criticism of you, by the way, it’s just unfortunately what happens sometimes, especially in text-only communication when we don’t know each other at all!).
And I second Mindy’s birthday wishes :)
Mindy: you are absolutely welcome to keep commenting, and your comment is by no means inappropriate. I agree with it entirely, and thanks for posting it.
The last part of my response to Sandy was more about my *own* time rather than anyone else’s. Although obviously, I’m back here, replying to comments, because I just can’t keep away… ;)
Happy Birthday MH.
Can I just say that I love that you dressed up for IWD? :)
Thanks :) Definitely a good reason to dress up as far as I’m concerned!